Hey, great comments on the Sex at Dawn post!
First of all, I hope it goes without saying that if you have anything you'd prefer not to leave in a comment, FTLOG email me (trueishstoryATgmail)! I MUST KNOW! As many anonymous commenters have learned the hard way, it's nearly impossible to offend me. Plus, I display an even MORE egregious disregard for my personal privacy through email, so you've got that going for you.
Anyway. Follow up thoughts! Here they are! Note the conspicuous avoidance of the colon!
*E-readers. You should totally have one, if for no other reason than the fact that no one can see what you are reading. Could be the Bible, could be the Kama Sutra. Just sayin.
*The communal living thing is interesting, isn't it? I agree with most of you guys that I don't see it happening for any of us, any time soon. I do wonder if it's possible to rearrange certain things, though. One thing I've noticed about being divorced and in a blended family is that certain elements of our situation mirror this. We don't live TOGETHER, but we do live within walking distance, and (in Ava's case) there are FOUR parents and at least FIVE sets of grandparents who have regular interaction with her. We share time with her so that each of us gets regular breaks from the responsibility of raising her, but on the other hand, each of us HAS to shoulder our share of the load. And so on. It just seems like nuclear families typically involve fewer caretakers, and sometimes there's no mechanism to encourage each person to pull their own weight.
*I'm happy being in a monogamous relationship, but I totally DO worry about the need for novelty and how that affects my marriage, and will in the future. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming the majority of us are not willing to lie or do things behind our partner's back. So, what CAN we do then? Have an open relationship? It seems to give most of us at least a MILD case of the skeeves, but then again so does having the same sex with the same person forever and ever amen! Sigh. This is where the feelings of hopelessness come in, I guess. That being said, I don't think the options are exclusively SWINGER or SEXLESS SHAM OF A MARRIAGE, either. Seems like there might be some options in between? This is where you quietly clasp your rosary and pray for my soul. Heh. (slash comment/email with your ideas).
*If you're not currently SHACKLED with the HELL ON EARTH that is a monogamous relationship (*eye roll*), what then? Should you strive to be a complete and unrepentant slut?
YES. The end.
Heh. Seriously, as the mother of a daughter (3 actually), I've thought a lot about this, and if you asked me (TODAY) whether I would want Ava to be a virgin when she gets married, my honest answer (TODAY) is: no. I want her to fiercely protect her physical and emotional health and safety, but not her virginity.
Listen, this is a highly charged topic, I GET IT, and this is just my personal opinion (TODAY), but I will say that I was, uh, NOT A VIRGIN when I got married (either time)(UNDERSTATEMENT), and if anything I wish I had had MORE sexual experiences while it was still relatively uncomplicated. I'm sure my husband, who has to have sex with me for the rest of his life (HORRORS), feels the same. In fact, he should thank me for being such a HOOR back in the day. I guess asking him to thank the other DUDES is pushing it.
HA HA!
IT'S JUST SEX, you guys! Now leave some comments and don't leave me hangin. xo
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35 comments:
"conspicuous avoidance of the colon"
haha!
Sorry. (sort of.)
gah! I had an awesome comment and blogger ate it. Dammit. Will try again.
I love that you differentiate between virginity and physical and emotional health. For some they are the one and the same, for others they are not.
I am ambiguous about having lost my virginity. I never cared if I was a virgin or not on my wedding night. So much so, that I don't recollect ever even thinking about it.
However, while I appreciate the uncomplicated-ness (Jesus) of the relationships that did not include sex, I do wish I'd had that experience with a few folks from my past.
Now - on to heternormative monogamous questions!!!!!
I think the only way for there to be options is for there to be genuine honesty. And it has to start with oneself. You have to absolutely be honest with yourself about how you FEEL about multiple partners for yourself and for your mate. If you come to the conclusion that you genuinely could have an open relationship, then it is time to talk to Significant Other and wait for them to go through the entire Honest-With-Oneself process. Then be honest with each other.
A. and I talk about this frequently, actually. Neither of us imagine this as "swinging." But rather a boy/girlfriend. I think it would be a RELIEF not to have to be everything for someone. That is a lot of expectations and pressure, goddammit. I wouldn't mind that someone else could provide something for A. that he needed, sexual or otherwise.
For me, it is that A. and I are IT. We are in this for the long hall and we know it. THAT is what we give each other (along with sex, friendship, yadda yadda). That is different from a boy/girlfriend.
I am not making any sense. Also, I am not nearly ready to jump off this cliff yet. It is all theory.
Carry on!
Oh, it sounds like A. was my first. He was most certainly not. And we are both glad the other has had quite a few partners. Do others mind? I am interested.
In my experience, some mind and some don't. Tosc didn't even flinch when we had that discussion (another good sign), but others (CARLOS ahem) have BIG TIME MINDED. And still others I was evasive with, anticipating that they would mind.
Shamefully, I've even used the "Rule of Three" from Sex and the City with a former (v.v. conservative) boyfriend at CBU.
As a mother to three daughters as well, I don't (TODAY) (AS YOU SAID) wish for them to be virgins when they're married. I also hope they wait to have sex until college (HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR AT EARLIEST) because I think young teenagers are (USUALLY) not ready for the emotional side of casual sex, or are incapable of casual sex all together and end up hurt and confused a great deal of the time.
As you said, I hope they protect themselves physically and emotionally, but I also hope they (IF THEY WISH) have experiences too. I've never wished my husband was my first, and like you, if anything, I wish I'd had MORE experiences before meeting him.
I will say that 10 years into marriage and I don't feel like monogamy is a problem for us. I KNOW 10 years is laughably short in the lifespan of, well, a LIFETIME, but it encourages me that we're not struggling/bored/seeking yet. Sure, we have our slumps, but so far it doesn't seem overwhelming.
I am really wanting to read this book. I LOVE reading from recommendations, so thanks for that.
Oh, this is totally fascinating, particularly the do we want our children to remain virgins until they're married part.
On that, I think no. BUT, I also idealistically hope that they are ready and careful and not in high school. Please, oh please, not in high school.
I don't want my children (or their chosen life partners) to be virgins when they get married...as much as I am allowed to have an opinion about such things. I daresay I won't be invited to the conversation.
I DO hope that they choose to communicate freely, to ask permission, to consent, to respect when it comes to sex. That is the kind of men I want them to be.
As far as an open relationship, I can't help but think: When would I have the time for THAT. I can barely fit in enough hours of sleep and call my grandmother once a month. I seriously don't know how I would nurture another romantic (supposedly) relationship. If we are adding another person to my marriage, I want a housekeeper. Amen.
I'm happy with the monogamy too. I wonder though, if Hub say, dropped dead tomorrow...(or if he left me, I guess) what would I want out of life? Monogomy might not be it.
I wouldn't want my kids to be virgins when they got married. I mean in theroy that sounds like the great plan--my kids shouldn't have sex until they're 30!! But I know it's not reality. I want them to be ready and prepared for it, and not say, 16. (AHEM)
Would you be honest with Ava when the time comes, about past experience, partners and when you lost it? I mean obviosuly not detailzzz but jesus. I'm dreading the line between frank open honest discussion and blurting out "I did your dad when I was 16!!"
I would definitely be honest with her, if she was interested, which I suspect SHE WILL NOT BE WITH EXTREME PREDUJICE.
I will be brutally honest with her about the consequences of sex (or NOT having sex) and what her choices/alternatives are (masterbation, etc)
A) I just typed "masterbation" on my blog
B) Misty-HA!
I find this discussion SO interesting. Especially coming from a family where other than the dreaded "this is where babies come from" talk, we didn't talk about sex (and yet, all the of my sisters had kids before they were out of high school).
I agree that I am glad I didn't wait. I have more to say, but I'm a) at work, and b) about to leave town for the weekend, so probably won't have time to say it later. But I will read when I can get back to it!
Also, re: village families/polygamy, it reminds me of the saying we had; the band that sleeps together stays together (re: our college pep band). HA. We were totally like one big polygamous family, except instead of ongoing it was more like musical chairs-just one at a time.
God, that sounds much more gross than it was; I swear.
I agree with Misty, even though I'm no longer married. Actually, I'd like a housekeeper MORE than a sexual partner at this time because I CAN just take care of THAT part myself (for a while, to some extent).
Here's my thing. If you are a SINGLE, Non-Married, Not in Committed Relationship adult and you want to have sex with whoever you want to have sex with whenever you want, BY ALL MEANS GO FOR IT! I hope you will be safe and treat those you are having sex with with respect blah blah blah but you are an adult; it is your choice.
But if you WANT to be able to DO that, then it's really, really, REALLY simple: Don't. Get. Married.
And if you ARE married, and you decide that you no longer WANT to have sex with that one guy or gal for the rest of your life, then END THE MARRIAGE first and then go on and do whatever you need to do.
But by taking the LEAP OF FAITH (because it is) to GET married and DEVOTE yourself to ONE AND ONLY FOREVER AND EVER, you no longer have the "right" to say, "I'll take Bob for financial security and laughter and I'll take Jim for sex and strip clubs." I mean, sure, even when you're married you have other friends, family, people you can count on that give you things - either emotional support or encouragement or whatever - that maybe your spouse doesn't in the way that you want. But the whole POINT of marriage is MONOGAMY. So if you don't want to be monogamous, don't get married.
I find it hard to believe a woman who says, "Sure, I'll let my husband have sex with whoever he wants if he's not getting what he wants from me." I wonder if those women have ever been cheated on. Because it is truly the most painful experience *I've* ever been through and I never EVER want to go there again.
I THINK I could handle having a boyfriend as well as a spouse. But I'm not sure, because what if I preferred the boyfriend? That's my main worry.
I'm PRETTY SURE I wouldn't be good with Paul having a girlfriend. I think I might be THE WORST with it.
I'm not worried about my kids having sex anywhere NEAR as much as I'm worried about:
1. pregnancy (I'm more worried about my boys on this, because I can take Elizabeth in for a shot or implant or something)
2. them mistaking a sexual relationship for Unbreakable Commitment
Farrell-I totally get what you're saying. I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is EVER appropriate to break your commitment to your partner or to go outside of whatever rules you've established, sexual or otherwise.
All I'm saying is, maybe there are some things couples CAN agree on that would help with the tension or stress or at-odds-needs or wants to whatever.
I also don't think everyone would agree that monogamy is necessarily the entire point of marriage. The point of marriage is to legalize a union, and it seems to me that can look like anything the parties want, from the inside. It's like saying that the point of marriage is having children. For some, yes, but not all.
Swistle-the pregnancy thing is TERRIFYING. Totally agree. In fact, it's so terrifying that I sometimes think the entire abstinence movement is built around reasonable parents not knowing another way to prevent unwanted pregnancy.
My husband WAS my first, which I find vaguely embarrassing, although we met young (18 and 19) and almost a decade passed before we actually got married. In any case, I also wish I had more experience beforehand and certainly would not wish for my daughter or son to be virgins when they get married (although I'd like them to wait as long as I did). I would also prefer for them to not marry the first boy/girl they seriously date, even though that worked out for me.
I have a good friend who has an open relationship and it works well for both of them. I sort of admire her for it, but don't think I could pull it off, personally.
Kate! No embarrassment! I think it's as inappropriate to be embarrassed by WAITING as it is to be embarrassed by NOT waiting.
Also, I wish more guys read this blog, or at least commented, because I'd like to hear whether they (HONESTLY) feel the same contentment with monogamy that many of us seem to. I mean, it's about BOTH partners being happy, right? I guess that's one of my frets too.
Tess! I'm asking Jim about it right now and I will report on what he says! This is actually one of the topics I wanted to tackle on my (now somewhat abandoned) marriage blog, but realized my family was indeed reading it too, so, uh... this was not something they could have read my feelings about without their heads exploding.
Kay, hang on and I'll follow this comment with what Jim said about the open marriage thing.
I have issues separating love and sex. A short-term totally sexual thing would be one thing - but a boyfriend/relationship? I don't know. I think, for me, it could become messier than it would be worth. Clear boundaries would have to be in place at the very least. But still. At this point in my life? Not worth it.
J and I are very open about our histories and we're open about attraction to other people, too, since I think it's sort of ridiculous to deny the existence of such things. Interestingly, I have zero issues with current attraction that he might casually mention, but have the occasional jealous reaction to a "oh, yeah, I didn't tell you about this one girl in HS" kind of conversation. It's weird.
Jim says: There are probably some people who can handle openness and maintain a healthy marriage/relationship. But he thinks they are very few; most people would end up with hurt feelings at the least and most likely dissolved relationships. He also said that it doesn't make sense to him that if you're feeling a lack of something in your own relationship (support, understanding, companionship, sexual variety) that you would spend time working on that OUTSIDE of your marriage instead of communicating WITHIN your marriage and trying to ask for what you need that you're not getting.
Which... easier said than done, is what I say. I feel like there's plenty of people who have asked and asked and ASKED for what they need and just aren't getting it. But we both agreed that in that case, maybe the answer is to dissolve that relationship? I mean, if one person refuses to do the work? Why bother with cheating or open marriage in that case... sounds like your original marriage isn't so great to begin with.
But if we're talking strictly sexual variety, I still think it COULD theoretically work. However, it's just kind of icky to me in reality, I guess. I can't imagine sleeping with Jim and thinking about who he may have also slept with the night before, you know?
And there's also the whole fundamental "is it WRONG" thing. Which is big for me.
Which brings us to the discussion of what we hope for our children. I wasn't a virgin on my wedding night, BUT I have only slept with him. This is something that on the whole I'm totally fine with. That said, I'm also not particularly sorry that he wasn't a virgin. It was kind of nice that at least one of us had some experience. But HE says he doesn't like thinking about the fact that he's been with other women.
So I don't know yet what I will say to my kids on the subject... I probably won't make such a huge fuss about the "you must be an UNTOUCHED VIRGIN!" thing, but I will make a HUGE fuss about having integrity, respect, and honesty in any sexual relationship. And I'll probably give a cheesy "don't have sex without LOVE (or condoms!)" sort of speech.
I know most Christians believe the Biblical definition of "fornication" is any sex outside of marriage. I'm not totally sure of that, but I feel that there IS a wrong and a right way to have sex, and I hope I'll at least impart to them the wisdom to know the difference. Like, I think you could have the wrong kind of sex (angry, dutiful, abusive, manipulative, cold) WITHIN marriage just as easily as outside of it. Does that make sense?
I agree on the daughter thing. It is not my wish for her to wait until marriage. My wish for her also, is to maybe enjoy sex for what it is, without so much emotional baggage. Though I imagine THAT comes with maturity, and years and years of bitter disappointment. Heh.
ALSO? Co-signed on the idea of wishing I'd been sluttier. I was so freaking inhibited in some ways, and I could have had so much more sex -while I was single and available of course, not talking about fucking everything that moves while in a committed relationship. I was pretty much a serial monogamist and wish I had dated around more.
I would love to talk about this stuff on my blog, but MY DAD reads it, FTLOG. So NO.
Anyhow, I, too, don't expect, nor want, my kids to be virgins when they get married. (Assuming they get married, that is. Gerald and I have homosexuality in our backgrounds/families, so it's a distinct possibility.)(That sounds like I'm alluding to a homosexual past for my husband. I'm not. It's mine.) ANYHOW.
Gerald wasn't my first, but there are things that I've only done with him and I like the "specialness" of that. We have a Very Honest Sexual Relationship and aren't embarrassed to talk about/act out fantasies, etc. I'm hoping our willingness to experiment with each other will keep the ennui from building over the coming decades. Because I just can't see myself being ok with him having something on the side. I'd theoretically be ok with anonymous sex partners but not relationships. That's too close to my territory, if you catch my drift.
Wow. I think this is the longest comment I've ever left on a blog. I love some sex talkin'.
I just discussed this with Gerald and here's his Married Man's opinion:
1. Sex and Marriage are not the same thing. That commitment inherent in marriage is not about sex.
2. Guys will always look at other women. Will always fantasize about other women. Will always talk about fucking other women with their guy friends. But in his experience, most would "put a bullet in their head before acting on it." He says this is more of an age thing, though. (i.e., being a 40 year old guy working at a major university and being surrounded by hot young ass on a daily basis.)
3. Guys are evolutionarily predisposed to seek multiple partners, but emotionally are happy with monogamy. Marriage equals home and safety to them.
4. Also, working at a major university is Very Difficult when you're a man, because there's hot young ass EVERYWHERE. So, if you're at all worried your man will cheat, don't let him work at a university or go back to school.
Erica - I love, love your insight into men at university - so funny and so true!
Ladies - you are all awesome. I love all these comments and different points of view and experience. And it all makes sense. (Also - holy cow are you guys raising some wonderful people.)
That is what it is all about, really. That it takes whatever shape it needs to in order to make sense to all those involved. In honesty.
I feel the need to clarify: A. and I have a GREAT relationship and are not looking for anything outside of our commitment. But we do talk about it. And it all sounds so plausible and perfect IN THEORY. But dude. In reality - with actual FEELINGS on the line - not nearly so neat and easy.
And part of why I love him so much is that we are able to have these honest conversations. They make each of us so vulnerable to be so honest. And that just reinforces our bond. Love it.
As the mom of a small girl...otherwise known as a daughter ha!...I would have to say that while I would probably like for her to remain a virgin until she is married (yes, I'm being a total hypocrit here) I know it is very unlikely and I'm somewhat okay with that. I mean no one wants to think their kid is out there hooking up and notching bed posts but really I probably need to lower the wool from my eyes right? I mean I survived sex and teenagedome. Realtively unscathed. However, I tend to hope she makes better choices that I did.
I'm with you on the monogamy/oh-geez-the-rest-of-my-life-really?? thing. What can you do? I know no happy medium that would work for my life.
Tess- OK:)
Sarah - I think your husband Jim is smart!
I think it's important to have premarital sex, if for no other reason than you can "relive the past" while you're doin' it with the one you are shackled to for life...not that I would do that ;)
I think I'm pretty similar to Marie Green. I would want Adriana to wait until college, or until she is emotionally mature enough to handle the ramifications of having sex. I would only want her to be a virgin when she gets married if that's what she TRULY WANTED and wasn't just getting married for the sole purpose of being "allowed" to have sex.
I guess asking him to thank the other DUDES is pushing it.
-- hahahaha! I'm laughing so hard at this. ha!
I don't care if they are virgins. I don't think it's good or bad in and of itself, I guess.
I just want them to be ready for it when they do it and take care of themselves and all that jazz.
I am perfectly happy with monogamy and do not think I, personally, could thrive in an open relationship of any kind.
Also, my husband was my first and only and I, his. (Although we didn't wait until we were married. )
I don't regret it or wish I had any other experiences. I'm probably not going to ask him because although I think he would say the same, I'm not sure I want to hear it if he says otherwise. ha.
I feel like I can only be honest if I comment w/out my name, which is probably silly, but whatever...
My husband and I were both virgins when we got married. I really couldn't imagine anything else because of the strict Catholic environment I grew up in. We talked about losing our virginity when we were engaged but then it was like, "Well we've waited this long..."
Our sex life is not great. Probably because neither of us never figured it out very well. So I can totally see how it would have HELPED us now to have had more experiences earlier. On the other hand, I don't know that either of us is exactly unhappy w/ things the way they are - as our relationship has evolved sex just isn't a huge part of what is important about us as a couple. That might be different if we were better at it.
Having said all that, I really don't know what I want for my kids in this regard. Because part of me doesn't think sex before marriage is really as wrong as I was raised to believe, but then I still have trouble separating from that and I honestly don't know what we'll tell our kids when the time comes to discuss all of it.
B and I talked about some of these topics this weekend (good date night discussion, no?).
While he would prefer M to be a virgin when she gets married and I would not (given my previous admission about holding on too tightly to my chastity belt), we agreed if she made it until her sophomore year of college, we'd be pretty content (totally arbitrary, I know).
He is happy with monogamy because "it's easier." He's often said he could never have an affair because it would be too much work. When I asked him about "something on the side" that was purely sexual (if he felt he wasn't getting what he wanted from me and I was willing to let him do it) he said it's impossible because someone is always going to have emotions.
To answer Artemisia's question: I don't care how many people he's slept with. I asked very early in our relationship and wanted as much detail as he was willing to provide, which wasn't much more than names. There is only one woman that took me some time to come to terms with and that's because he (and now I) remain friends with her. He was even in her wedding. I used to always think "hey, you've totally slept with my husband" everytime we had dinner with her. But I'm over it now. :)
B knows names of old flames but doesn't want to know anything else because he doesn't like to think of me with anyone else.
What I don't get are those who never have the conversation. I understand not wanting details or even a number, but not even asking if he's had sex? Baffling to me. But I guess that's because I'm curious/nosy and also pretty much an open book. I'm what you might call a sharer! (obv)
All of this has also made me think about the movie Hall Pass. I have not seen it but know the basic premise. I'm about 90% sure that if B ever gave me a pass (which he NEVER would but we're talking hypothetically here) and I knew there would be no consequences because of my actions (again, probably unlikely), and he was not allowed to hold it against me (because he offered it), I would take it. But then there's that nagging 10% that calls bullshit.
So, yeah. Talking sex on a blog. Good times
omfg i just wrote the LONGEST COMMENT EVER and it errored out. rage. i'll come back later and try to rewrite it; i'm too deflated to write it all again now.
I feel the need to be anonymous with this...such a touchy subject.
Hubby and I started dating when I was 16 and he was 19. We were each others first and only...until we decided to experiment with an open relationship. This was about 5 years ago. We laid the ground rules and allowed our "openness" to evolve over the five years. And, now, at this very time, we no longer have an open relationship. One of the rules was that if either of us ever became uncomfortable, then we would stop with no debate.
Last year, after 4 years of successful "dating", I became uncomfortable with a relationship he had developed with a girl we had both become friends with. I felt like they were getting too close (more like boyfriend/girlfriend) and that wasn't ok with me. The idea behind opening our relationship originally was so that we could both experience what we were never able to as youngsters. It was good for a while, then it just wasn't anymore.
I have to say, being in this "lifestyle" for so long...it rarely works out well. We were lucky, I think, because we set the "rules" before starting and because had a pretty firm relationship before starting. But I watched many, many people divorce/dissolve their relationships throughout the 5 years we were in it. Sad, but true. Hubby and I are now going on 19 years together and don't see ours ending anytime soon. :-)
~S
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